Curse

Sagius Truthbarron · Aug 14, 2005, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Well, I don't really think there are that many useless skills. Rust, for example could be combined with Primal Echo to pretty much stop any res signets while you use your damage skills to take down the res-attempting foe.

Perhaps at some point there would be an HoH build for a bunch of monks running around spamming signet smites.

I don't really think there are any worthless spells, just the way you calculate and use them.

Old Dood · Aug 14, 2005, 01:06 AM // 01:06

Hmm...I have never used Rust. Seems that Spell has been used on me over the years on a few of my automobiles.

Maybe that spell will work on that big metal robot looking thing in Sorrow's Furnace coming out soon. Watch him fall to dust.

Ensign · Aug 14, 2005, 01:20 AM // 01:20

I could know I'm facing a team with a pair of signet Mesmers, three Monks with Signet of Devotion and Signet of Judgement, and an assorted offense all with Ressigs, and I still wouldn't bring Rust. That skill is bad beyond words.

I too would like to know *when* we can expect to see this game fixed. All the promises are nice and all, but every single day that goes by I see more players getting sick of the grind for PvP, more competitive players running off to Battlefield 2 or Counterstrike or even to WoW, where the grind is at least accompanied by the carrot. I'd like to know if you're going to keep on 'working on it', or actually fix this game while there are still people playing it, while I still have a guild that's interested in playing the gem that you've buried in 3,000 hours of grind.

You have an amazing PvP community here that is *begging* you to make this the competitive game that you promised it to be, that you envisioned when you set out to make it years ago. The potential is still there. I merely hope that you choose to realize it before the game is written off entirely.

Peace,
-CxE

ExDeity · Aug 14, 2005, 05:35 AM // 05:35

I guess it's just me, and perhaps my opinion doesn't mean much as I rarely visit Tombs (although I PvP daily, either at Droknar Team or Kryta Random), but "nerfing" ANY of the skills that are already in place on this game seems a bit unfair to players who have utilised certain skills to their maximum effects.

An example of the foolishness I see in nerfing the skills we currently have...

If you had a team of 8 warriors, all using Sever Artery on 8 different foes, causing massive bleeding to an entire team, would any of you be justified in coming to this forum and whining about the fact that Sever Artery was being abused? I would say no. Why would I say no?

That's simple... Sever Artery is an easily-negated skill, just like EVERY OTHER SKILL on Guild Wars, if properly countered. Throw a mend ailment on any player currently bleeding, and the skill is properly countered, no major damage done.

Why are people complaining about spirit spamming? Because it makes it difficult to use skills you have taken for granted the entire time? And if this build is so invincible, why not run it against the team, using the same build, using the same skills, and hopefully better strategy, to counter?

Until Arena Net tells me that only a select 8 players can run a spirit-spamming build, and that I cannot run my own, I will never complain about the notion that it seems over-powered. Hey, some people consider Elite Skills to be overpowered, especially when they are brought to the Level 1-10 Ascalon Arenas for PvP. Yet, I don't see anyone (if they have spoken up, I apologize for not noticing) asking for hard-to-find elite skills to be removed from PvP altogether...

"Beating them at their own game" is a tactic that has been useful in just about any competitive video game ever made. If you are a better player then the opponent whoring you with a particular build, then use his build and beat him with it. The better player will win in that scenario, 9 times out of 10, with the one loss being credited to chance.

And, before any of you tell me that EVERYONE running a spirit-spamming build will make the game boring and repetitive, keep in mind that the current opinion of what's going on in HoH seems to be that spirit spams are being destroyed by Warrior builds that overpower them, while running on lower energy.

Shinsei · Aug 14, 2005, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Stick to the topic ExDeity. This isn't about wether or not the complaints are viable. We've all been through this argument before, and anyone with half a brain would know that your logic and anyone else attempting to defend A.net in this way, is flawed.

On-topic:
Hi Gaile/Alex. Please don't run from the criticism. It doesn't bite that hard.

Sagius Truthbarron · Aug 14, 2005, 09:11 AM // 09:11

I was soloing UW today and wow.. Rust really does alot to stop my build. I gain almost no energy whille fighting Coldfire Nights unless smites are hitting me at the same time.

It's never really been a useless skills for the ENEMY to use in PvE. I was thinking another thing would be people healing themself using Signet of Devotion and Blessed Signet would be pretty ineffective.

I'de say it's about as useful as "Cleave" even

Eet GnomeSmasher · Aug 14, 2005, 08:26 PM // 20:26

I wish there were some news or acknowledgement on the state of PVP too... It's getting to be stagnant, boring and monotonous if it keeps going the way it is.

Sayshina · Aug 14, 2005, 08:37 PM // 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkWasp

Well if you read the latest update letter, that answers some of your questions.

Some of the others are an opinion. And I dont think I have ever seen a dev respond to a direct dev addressed topic. You could be a first if they respond

.

I remember back when the build was W/mos and a few monks. It was all run in and take heavy damage. Now its all monks and eles, the run away and pray you dont chip a nail doing so. And then those groups started using enchants so they could hold up more. So a bunch of rangers flood in spreading spirits like rabbits that drain energy and kill enchants. And now the warriors are comming back to kill the rangers.

Every build has a weakness and for monks, its usualy NR. So if they did answer your first question it would most likely be no. I could be wrong though.

First off, Gaile is NOT a dev (thank god for small favors). She has responded to direct posts in the past, but unfortunatly seems less inclined to respond to any that don't gush with love over all things herself and GW. I'm not certain which she is more likely to respond to, but expect it's the ones directed more toward her. She's also a bit of a twit, and has been guilty of flaming people who disagree with her. I'd put her down as one of the all time worst customer service reps I've ever directly dealt with. Right up there with the White House Press Secretary now that things aren't quite going Carl Rove's way ATM.

The OP asked direct questions, and you refered him to the vague hints of progress in that update note. That's hardly an effective answer. In an unrelated direct answer to the OP (getting rid of Rust would be a mistake. MGT had artifact removal, one of them actualy named Rust btw, that was "useless" for years. Artifacts sucked. Then they didn't, artifact decks sprang up, and suddenly EVERYBODY needed artifact removal.)

You remember way back to when it was W/Mo's? Which time? On release, or during Beta's? Gosh.

You're arguement of the "never ending circle of builds" is the company line, sure. It's also demonstrably crap. There is no way the cycle will go on forever unless:

1: The dev's make a concerted effort to rebalance skills just for the hell of it, and continue to rebalance them EVERY time the metagame dies down.

2: They add new skills, thus shaking up the metagame, faster than it can settle down.

This game is often compared to magic the gathering. Much of that comparison is valid, as far as the skills go. So how's about we learn from the several years of metagame, in several different formats, to get a clue about what we are in for?

There exists one build that is superior to all others. This is not my opinion, it is statistical fact. It will be found, by those who care enough to go through every skill, thinking of their interactions with every other skill, both on their own team as well as all opponents. Magic shows us this.

In the metagame, for every skill set, baring changes to that skill set (either new skills or rebalancing existing ones), there will be 1 dominant build. This build might not be apparent at first, and may take time to turn up, but once it does the metagame ALWAYS boils down to the dominant build vs. one or more counter builds. Occasionaly, the counter builds, if they are very good at countering the dominant, can open up the metagame for a third build, but this only happens once out of perhaps every 5th or so season. As Magic seasons are historicaly much shorter than GW seasons (we don't know how long a GW season will turn out to be, but MTG seasons are on average 4 months long), the metagame will be stagnant for a greater period of time.

What we do have going for us is this:

We have a vastly smaller community of dedicated players willing to invest the effort in finding that dominant build. There exists no person in GW that I have run across with the Finkel brand of obsession with his game.

It's also much easier for this game to be rebalanced in the event of a rediculously dominant build that can't be countered (as happened in MTG a couple of times, Tolarian Academy anyone?), because the computer skills can be theoreticaly rebalanced overnight, as opposed to the Magic cards being reprinted. That's why MTG has usualy resorted to bannings of broken skills. So there is some reason for hope, but the current state of affairs, with rebalancing seemingly far off, leaves doubt as to just how much hope.

With a stable environment, with no rebalancing and no new skills added, there WILL be a single dominant build, that much I guarantee. It's simple math. There will be a single best counter build to that dominant build as well. And those 2 builds will comprise the vast majority of teams playing, limited only by availability of the necessary skills. The exact percentages depends on how good the second build is at countering the dominant, and how vulnerable it is to other builds itself. If the counter is very vulnerable to other builds, but also very good at beating the dominant, it MAY open up the way for a third.

Example:

Rath cycle only, Pro Tour qualifier rounds.

Dominant: Recur/Survival. Beats just about everything, is very good overall, in fact so good that it's engine will later be banned to open up the metagame.

Counter: Sligh. Beats Recur much of the time just because it's fast. It runs out of steam fast too, so if there's any show down it's toast.

Third: Counter Phoenix. Slower than Sligh, but can usualy take it by massive removal, followed by control and slow beatdown. Faster than Survival, and the control can counter key spells that Survival needs to run its engine. (Just braging rights, I am the first person to attempt to use this deck in Rath cycle. I lose badly, but a better player takes it 2 weeks later and dominates with it.

Results: Recur/Survival starts out as dominant, but as long as Sligh remains in the mix Survival has to compromise its build, which allows Counter Phoenix to win overall. Sligh then drops out, leaving a head to head matchup, which Survival wins as it no longer has to worry about facing Sligh.

Counter Phoenix dominates the first few weeks, Survival dominates the next year or so. Sligh never makes the expected impact.

As I said, unless there is constant attention from the devs (highly unlikely given their near total lack of interest in PvP to date), something similar to this IS GUARANTEED to happen to Guildwars.

Shinsei · Aug 14, 2005, 09:16 PM // 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eet GnomeSmasher

. And to have you Shinsei post in here is a big deterrant to her.

Not responding to the community's critical questions (which is her job, believe it or not) because someone who has shown how unsatisfied in the service he is in the past is viewing the subject aswell, would be an obvious childish display of unprofessionalism. However that wouldn't surprise me, because she has shown such actions in the past. Either way, with people she dislikes in this topic or not, it should never get in the way of doing one's job.